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Nostradurus je napisao/la:Ostatak trebaju razraditi stručnjaci.
Stvar je u tome sto si "strucnjak" za tu temu..ti
Jer svi ostali su "strucnjaci" za drugaciji pogled na ekonomiju. Malo je podrucje i malo se ljudi sa tim bavi...
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wiz- Broj postova : 561
Join date : 05.09.2011
Stvar je u tome sto si "strucnjak" za tu temu..ti
Jer svi ostali su "strucnjaci" za drugaciji pogled na ekonomiju. Malo je podrucje i malo se ljudi sa tim bavi...
Nostradurus- Admin
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Join date : 12.04.2011
Lokacija : Hrvatska
wiz je napisao/la:Nostradurus je napisao/la:Ostatak trebaju razraditi stručnjaci.
Stvar je u tome sto si "strucnjak" za tu temu..ti
Jer svi ostali su "strucnjaci" za drugaciji pogled na ekonomiju. Malo je podrucje i malo se ljudi sa tim bavi...
Mislio sam tu na popunjavanje ostalih akcija za obnovu društva. Moj utjecaj je utoliko što sam dokazao da financijski temelji ovog društva ne drže vodu i što treba učiniti da bi bili stabilni. To ne znači da znam sve što je potrebno za organizirati privredu i ekonomiju u društvu. Fali nam nova ekonomija na temeljima nekreditnog novca. To je polje za filozofe i ekonomiste.
_________________
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wiz- Broj postova : 561
Join date : 05.09.2011
Nostradurus je napisao/la:
Mislio sam tu na popunjavanje ostalih akcija za obnovu društva. Moj utjecaj je utoliko što sam dokazao da financijski temelji ovog društva ne drže vodu i što treba učiniti da bi bili stabilni. To ne znači da znam sve što je potrebno za organizirati privredu i ekonomiju u društvu. Fali nam nova ekonomija na temeljima nekreditnog novca. To je polje za filozofe i ekonomiste.
SFRJ ekonomija bi funkcionirala na temeljima nekreditnog novca. Stovise, mislim da bi funkcionirala dosta dobro a mozda i je funkcionirala na temljima nekreditnog novca. Znaci, ekonomija postoji....i sve je cak vec rasporedeno gdje treba biti i kako treba biti uredeno...postoje planovi
Jesi ti procitao ovo i da li shvacas sto to znaci ?
wiz je napisao/la:za ovo vjerojatno znate ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations_towards_Yugoslavia
For almost two decades the Yugoslav public was not aware of the existence of the 1973 Aide Mémoire or position paper (a declaration of the Yugoslav Government), which was the condition of the German negotiators for this credit. The existence of the Aide Mémoire was also concealed in the statement of the Federal Secretariat of Foreign Affairs from January 1990, which was issued due to a series of public requests and inquiries of the deputies of both federal and state assemblies on the payment for war damages.
The content of the Aide Mémoire is as follows:
“In principle, the Government of SFRY accepts the proposal of the Government of FRG to compensate the indemnification of Yugoslav victims of Nazi repression in the total sum of one billion German marks in terms of monetary relief (Kapitalhilfe).
On the occasion of making this decision, the Government of SFRY takes into account the good faith, which was formed through the progressive and fruitful cooperation amongst SFRY and FRG, as well as the interests of the two countries to successfully and universally enhance their relations, what without doubt represents a contribution for broader international cooperation.
The Government of SFRY understands that the aforementioned credit shall be given under the most favorable terms, which are provided for credits of this kind. These means shall not be subject to any objects.”
As maintained by Willy Brandt, the so-called Brioni Formula is an “indirect solution” for the payment of reparations through long-term economic cooperation; because of this the President of SFRY Josip Broz Tito and his coworkers gave their consent. Prior to this and at that time the ongoing negotiations, on indemnification of the victims of Nazi repression, agreed upon the number 950 thousand. In reality, it was much larger considering the victims in occupied Yugoslavia and beyond it, and especially in the so-called Independent State of Croatia. There was a possibility that Yugoslavia could receive 2,200 German marks per victim, which would total over 2 billion marks. This would be the implementation of the so-called French model, in accordance with what FR Germany already in the 1960s paid the victims of the other countries, especially Western countries (Israel and the Jewish victims were indemnified earlier).
In the place of such direct remedies, as it was the case with the other countries, a credit of 1 billion with the obligation to pay back was received at the insistence of Germany and by means of the enforcement of the so-called Brioni Formula.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=veselin+duranovic&l=1
Veselin Đuranović
In 1981, Đuranović signed a credit package from the Federal Republic of Germany of DM 1.4 billion in funds for Yugoslavia.
Da pokusam prevesti sa engleskog...SFRJ je dobila kredit od njemacke na temelju ratnih reparacija (stete ucinjene u ratu) od 1.4 bilijona DM.
Ja mislim da je to kredit o kojem svi govore kao o "titovim" kreditima kojima se on vani zaduzivao. Isto tako mislim da tak kredit nikad nije trebao biti otplacen i da su uvjeti trebali biti puno povoljniji nego ovi koje sad otplacujemo (sve zemlje bivse juge).
The Government of SFRY understands that the aforementioned credit shall be given under the most favorable terms, which are provided for credits of this kind. These means shall not be subject to any objects
Nostradurus- Admin
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wiz je napisao/la:Nostradurus je napisao/la:
Mislio sam tu na popunjavanje ostalih akcija za obnovu društva. Moj utjecaj je utoliko što sam dokazao da financijski temelji ovog društva ne drže vodu i što treba učiniti da bi bili stabilni. To ne znači da znam sve što je potrebno za organizirati privredu i ekonomiju u društvu. Fali nam nova ekonomija na temeljima nekreditnog novca. To je polje za filozofe i ekonomiste.
SFRJ ekonomija bi funkcionirala na temeljima nekreditnog novca. Stovise, mislim da bi funkcionirala dosta dobro a mozda i je funkcionirala na temljima nekreditnog novca. Znaci, ekonomija postoji....i sve je cak vec rasporedeno gdje treba biti i kako treba biti uredeno...postoje planovi
Jesi ti procitao ovo i da li shvacas sto to znaci ?wiz je napisao/la:za ovo vjerojatno znate ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations_towards_Yugoslavia
For almost two decades the Yugoslav public was not aware of the existence of the 1973 Aide Mémoire or position paper (a declaration of the Yugoslav Government), which was the condition of the German negotiators for this credit. The existence of the Aide Mémoire was also concealed in the statement of the Federal Secretariat of Foreign Affairs from January 1990, which was issued due to a series of public requests and inquiries of the deputies of both federal and state assemblies on the payment for war damages.
The content of the Aide Mémoire is as follows:
“In principle, the Government of SFRY accepts the proposal of the Government of FRG to compensate the indemnification of Yugoslav victims of Nazi repression in the total sum of one billion German marks in terms of monetary relief (Kapitalhilfe).
On the occasion of making this decision, the Government of SFRY takes into account the good faith, which was formed through the progressive and fruitful cooperation amongst SFRY and FRG, as well as the interests of the two countries to successfully and universally enhance their relations, what without doubt represents a contribution for broader international cooperation.
The Government of SFRY understands that the aforementioned credit shall be given under the most favorable terms, which are provided for credits of this kind. These means shall not be subject to any objects.”
As maintained by Willy Brandt, the so-called Brioni Formula is an “indirect solution” for the payment of reparations through long-term economic cooperation; because of this the President of SFRY Josip Broz Tito and his coworkers gave their consent. Prior to this and at that time the ongoing negotiations, on indemnification of the victims of Nazi repression, agreed upon the number 950 thousand. In reality, it was much larger considering the victims in occupied Yugoslavia and beyond it, and especially in the so-called Independent State of Croatia. There was a possibility that Yugoslavia could receive 2,200 German marks per victim, which would total over 2 billion marks. This would be the implementation of the so-called French model, in accordance with what FR Germany already in the 1960s paid the victims of the other countries, especially Western countries (Israel and the Jewish victims were indemnified earlier).
In the place of such direct remedies, as it was the case with the other countries, a credit of 1 billion with the obligation to pay back was received at the insistence of Germany and by means of the enforcement of the so-called Brioni Formula.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=veselin+duranovic&l=1
Veselin Đuranović
In 1981, Đuranović signed a credit package from the Federal Republic of Germany of DM 1.4 billion in funds for Yugoslavia.
Da pokusam prevesti sa engleskog...SFRJ je dobila kredit od njemacke na temelju ratnih reparacija (stete ucinjene u ratu) od 1.4 bilijona DM.
Ja mislim da je to kredit o kojem svi govore kao o "titovim" kreditima kojima se on vani zaduzivao. Isto tako mislim da tak kredit nikad nije trebao biti otplacen i da su uvjeti trebali biti puno povoljniji nego ovi koje sad otplacujemo (sve zemlje bivse juge).
The Government of SFRY understands that the aforementioned credit shall be given under the most favorable terms, which are provided for credits of this kind. These means shall not be subject to any objects
Baš i ne kužim. Ako je kredit, to je trošak. Tko bi nekome za odštetu stvarao trošak? Netko je bio malouman kad je to potpisivao.
Jugoslavija je bila društvo koje se stalno transfromiralo. Tako je teško govoriti o nekoj točci koja bi bila referenca. Ako je to zadnje stanje prije raspada, očigledno je da sustav nije mogao nadvladati separatističke ideje koje su potpirivanje iz vana. Inače, zbog različitog prirasta stanovnika različitih nacija, Juga je bila osuđena samim time na propast. To je faktor koji utječe da se neki narodi počnu osjećati ugroženi. Narod koji počne dobivati sve veću većinu može lako prenijeti vlast po demokratskom principu. Dakle, multinacionalna zajednica bi morala imati elemente kontrole stanovništva na bazi pariteta. Osim toga, ako se radi o nižem civilizacijkom nivou, a većoj brojnosti, tada dolazi do međunacionalnih sukoba. Friški primjer je romi u Lici. Prije je toga bilo sa albancima i muslimanima. Ideja je jedno, a praksa drugo.
Srbi i Hrvati se mogu slagati jer imaju sličan rast stanovnika.
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Nostradurus je napisao/la:
Baš i ne kužim. Ako je kredit, to je trošak. Tko bi nekome za odštetu stvarao trošak? Netko je bio malouman kad je to potpisivao.
Sad obrati paznju na ovaj dio:
The Government of SFRY understands that the aforementioned credit shall be given under the most favorable terms, which are provided for credits of this kind. These means shall not be subject to any objects
Vlada SFRJ razumije da ce gore spomenuti kredit biti dan pod najpovolnijim uvjetima, koji se daju za kredite te vrste. Ovo znaci da nece biti nikakvih prigovora
Jel ti mislis da je taj kredit dan pod "najpovolnijim" uvjetima ?
Znas sto bi mogla znaciti fraza "nece biti prigovora na uvjete" ?
Mozda bi trebalo njemce podsjetiti koji su bili uvjeti za davanje kredita..jer stvarno je moguce da "nasa vlada" ne komunicira njemcima da mi (kao narodi SFRJ) nismo bas zadovoljni sa uvjetima kredita...
Ja mislim da su narodi SFRJ dobili taj kredit (iz kojeg je nastao vanjski dug) kao kompenzaciju za ratne zrtve u 2 svjetskom ratu. I da taj kredit nije trebao nikad biti otplacen.
Nostradurus- Admin
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wiz je napisao/la:Nostradurus je napisao/la:
Baš i ne kužim. Ako je kredit, to je trošak. Tko bi nekome za odštetu stvarao trošak? Netko je bio malouman kad je to potpisivao.
Sad obrati paznju na ovaj dio:
The Government of SFRY understands that the aforementioned credit shall be given under the most favorable terms, which are provided for credits of this kind. These means shall not be subject to any objects
Vlada SFRJ razumije da ce gore spomenuti kredit biti dan pod najpovolnijim uvjetima, koji se daju za kredite te vrste. Ovo znaci da nece biti nikakvih prigovora
Jel ti mislis da je taj kredit dan pod "najpovolnijim" uvjetima ?
Znas sto bi mogla znaciti fraza "nece biti prigovora na uvjete" ?
Mozda bi trebalo njemce podsjetiti koji su bili uvjeti za davanje kredita..jer stvarno je moguce da "nasa vlada" ne komunicira njemcima da mi (kao narodi SFRJ) nismo bas zadovoljni sa uvjetima kredita...
Ja mislim da su narodi SFRJ dobili taj kredit (iz kojeg je nastao vanjski dug) kao kompenzaciju za ratne zrtve u 2 svjetskom ratu. I da taj kredit nije trebao nikad biti otplacen.
Mislim da je u to klasičan kredit sa diskontom u kamati. Možda se mislilo da prigovora od strane SRNJ neće biti. Sve jedno je to bio trošak za SFRJ. Manji nego kod drugih kreditora.
_________________
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BUBI- Broj postova : 196
Join date : 03.10.2011
Jučer 15.7.2012. sam gledao jutarnje vijesti na HRT 1 u 10:00, te su u neformalnom druženju na ATP turniru u Umagu novinari priupitali Lukovića( predsjednik Hr. teniskog saveza i Zg. banke) (tijekom intervjua je imao teniski reket i kratke hlače, bijele čarape, tenisice, majica kratkih rukava-dakle spreman za igru tenisa, a ne za intervju) koji je uzrok trenutne krize? On je lijepo kratko i jasno rekao da je uzrok krize: trenutna slaba potražnja za kreditima od strane poduzetnika i građana. Da je veća potražnja bilo bi i više novca.
Točno je čovjek rekao, zato i je predsjednik najveće poslovne banke u državi.
Točno je čovjek rekao, zato i je predsjednik najveće poslovne banke u državi.
Nostradurus- Admin
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BUBI je napisao/la:Jučer 15.7.2012. sam gledao jutarnje vijesti na HRT 1 u 10:00, te su u neformalnom druženju na ATP turniru u Umagu novinari priupitali Lukovića( predsjednik Hr. teniskog saveza i Zg. banke) (tijekom intervjua je imao teniski reket i kratke hlače, bijele čarape, tenisice, majica kratkih rukava-dakle spreman za igru tenisa, a ne za intervju) koji je uzrok trenutne krize? On je lijepo kratko i jasno rekao da je uzrok krize: trenutna slaba potražnja za kreditima od strane poduzetnika i građana. Da je veća potražnja bilo bi i više novca.
Točno je čovjek rekao, zato i je predsjednik najveće poslovne banke u državi.
Vi kao očekujete da će reći istinu. Kad ste zadnji puta čuli istinu od bankara?
Hoće reći kada bi svi uzeli kredite da bi tada sve bilo 5. Ma nemoj. A u ovoj situaciji i jesmo jer su svi uzimali kredite i sada ih se nema od kuda vratiti. Slovenija se toliko zaletila u kredite da su sada dužni po stanovniku kao i mi. I što imaju od toga? Sve će morati rasprodati za dugove i još ostati dužni.
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Join date : 03.10.2011
Sada smo u takvoj situaciji, jer ne uzimamo dodatne kredite, a takvu situaciju su inicirali isključivo poduzetnici.
Objašnjenje: Inicijalni uzrok krize u RH je, poduzetnikova želje za konstantnim rastom profita, kad poduzetnik ne može ostvariti dodatni profit rastom prodaje(vrijednosno niti količinski), tada kreće u rezanje plaća i otpuštanja radnika. Dakle privi otkazi su se dijelili da bi se ostvario dodatni profit. To je uzrokovalo pad potražnje za dodatnim kreditima kod zaposlenih građana, a na to se nadovezuje pad potražnje, što uzrokuje pad prihoda poduzetnika i pad potražnje za kreditima kod podueztnika i daljni pad zaposlenosti radnika, što dovodi do daljnjeg pada potražnje za kreditima od strane građana i daljnjeg smanjena prihoda poduzetnika, što rezultira dodatnim otkazima radnicima i opet sve ukrug.
Isto takva situacija se dogodila krajem 2007. u SAD-u, gdje su kućanstva bila opterećena hipotekarnim stambenim kreditima, koje su zaposlena kučanstva uredno otpaćivala, sve dok im u jesen 2007. poduzetnici nisu poćeli smanjivati plaće i davati otkaze, s ciljem ostvarnja dodatnog profita, ne na račun dodatnog prihoda, nego na račun nižih postojećih troškova. Zbog nagle neotplativnosti i naplativnosti gomile hipotekarnih stambenih kredita kriza se naziva bankarska, iako su je inicijalno uzrokovali poduzetnici, iako se ne smije zanemariti negativna uloga(posljedična zbog zaštite dioničara banaka, ali ne i inicijalna) banaka, koju se povećavale kamatne stope, kada je naplativost naglo padala.
Dakle, dok je stalna ili rastuća potražnja za dodatnim kreditima od strane građana i poduzetnika, sistem funkcionira kreditnog novca u kapitalizmu, i ono najvažnije, dok su poduzetnici dodatni profit, ostvarivali isključivo rastom prihoda, sistem je funkcionirao upotupnosti.
Problem inicijalno nisu proizrokovale banke, nego poduzetnici. Banke su samo dodatno produbile krizu, rastom kamata.
Lijepo je Luković rekao da su "...ah uvijek su banke svemu krive...", međutim nisu, inicijalno krivi su poduzetnici, to i sam Luković zna, ali to ipak nije rekao, da ga nebi optužili za antipoduzetničku klimu.
Objašnjenje: Inicijalni uzrok krize u RH je, poduzetnikova želje za konstantnim rastom profita, kad poduzetnik ne može ostvariti dodatni profit rastom prodaje(vrijednosno niti količinski), tada kreće u rezanje plaća i otpuštanja radnika. Dakle privi otkazi su se dijelili da bi se ostvario dodatni profit. To je uzrokovalo pad potražnje za dodatnim kreditima kod zaposlenih građana, a na to se nadovezuje pad potražnje, što uzrokuje pad prihoda poduzetnika i pad potražnje za kreditima kod podueztnika i daljni pad zaposlenosti radnika, što dovodi do daljnjeg pada potražnje za kreditima od strane građana i daljnjeg smanjena prihoda poduzetnika, što rezultira dodatnim otkazima radnicima i opet sve ukrug.
Isto takva situacija se dogodila krajem 2007. u SAD-u, gdje su kućanstva bila opterećena hipotekarnim stambenim kreditima, koje su zaposlena kučanstva uredno otpaćivala, sve dok im u jesen 2007. poduzetnici nisu poćeli smanjivati plaće i davati otkaze, s ciljem ostvarnja dodatnog profita, ne na račun dodatnog prihoda, nego na račun nižih postojećih troškova. Zbog nagle neotplativnosti i naplativnosti gomile hipotekarnih stambenih kredita kriza se naziva bankarska, iako su je inicijalno uzrokovali poduzetnici, iako se ne smije zanemariti negativna uloga(posljedična zbog zaštite dioničara banaka, ali ne i inicijalna) banaka, koju se povećavale kamatne stope, kada je naplativost naglo padala.
Dakle, dok je stalna ili rastuća potražnja za dodatnim kreditima od strane građana i poduzetnika, sistem funkcionira kreditnog novca u kapitalizmu, i ono najvažnije, dok su poduzetnici dodatni profit, ostvarivali isključivo rastom prihoda, sistem je funkcionirao upotupnosti.
Problem inicijalno nisu proizrokovale banke, nego poduzetnici. Banke su samo dodatno produbile krizu, rastom kamata.
Lijepo je Luković rekao da su "...ah uvijek su banke svemu krive...", međutim nisu, inicijalno krivi su poduzetnici, to i sam Luković zna, ali to ipak nije rekao, da ga nebi optužili za antipoduzetničku klimu.
Nostradurus- Admin
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G. Bubi, analiza vam ne drži vodu. Ja znam da vi navijate za stalno uzimanje kredita, ali to ne drži vodu. Koliko puta da vam kažem. Ako je sva masa novca kredit, nemate od kuda stalno nalaziti novac za kamate - zaradu banaka. A glavnicu ne možete otplatiti ni u ludilu.
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Nostradurus je napisao/la:G. Bubi, analiza vam ne drži vodu. Ja znam da vi navijate za stalno uzimanje kredita, ali to ne drži vodu. Koliko puta da vam kažem. Ako je sva masa novca kredit, nemate od kuda stalno nalaziti novac za kamate - zaradu banaka. A glavnicu ne možete otplatiti ni u ludilu.
Čime argumentirate da analiza ne drži vodu? OK glavnica plus kamate, kamata je dodatna jedinica na glavnicu, koja se optlaćuje dodatnim radom, investiranjem glavnice u proizvodnju proizvoda ili pružanje usluga( npr frizer za 100 kn glavnice kupi škare, a uslugu šišanja naplaćuje 50 kn i već za tri šišanja može otplatiti investiciju s kamatom, i sve štima, osim ako bi kupcima( jer su dobili otkaz kod poslodavca) pala kupovna moć, pa nebi mogli platiti šišanje 50 kn, a frizer ne želi šišati za nižu cijenu od 50kn, jer osim kredita(glavnica plus kamata) mora financirati i mjesečnu pretplatu na svoj novi iphone.
Ako je sva masa novca kredit, nemate od kuda stalno nalaziti novac za kamate - zaradu banaka.
Tu rečenicu sam Vam upravo objasnio na jednostavnom primjeru firzera i kupnje škara na kredit uz glavnicu 100 kn i kamata 10kn(10% godišnje). Može se govoriti samo o uzroku problemu naplate kredita i otplate kredita, a ne o kreditu s kamatom kao subjektom u ekonomiji.
wiz- Broj postova : 561
Join date : 05.09.2011
BUBI je napisao/la:Jučer 15.7.2012. sam gledao jutarnje vijesti na HRT 1 u 10:00, te su u neformalnom druženju na ATP turniru u Umagu novinari priupitali Lukovića( predsjednik Hr. teniskog saveza i Zg. banke) (tijekom intervjua je imao teniski reket i kratke hlače, bijele čarape, tenisice, majica kratkih rukava-dakle spreman za igru tenisa, a ne za intervju) koji je uzrok trenutne krize? On je lijepo kratko i jasno rekao da je uzrok krize: trenutna slaba potražnja za kreditima od strane poduzetnika i građana. Da je veća potražnja bilo bi i više novca.
Točno je čovjek rekao, zato i je predsjednik najveće poslovne banke u državi.
To je tocno, sto je veca potraznja za kreditima to ima vise novca u opticaju.
Tako je napravljen sistem. Da kolicina novca u opticaju bude povezana sa brojem kredita. Zato se i banke trude dati sto vise kredita i imati sto vise klijenata.
uzroci zasto poduzetnici ne traze kredit (i to jedna vrsta) su zanimljivii.
Isto tako ima poduzetnika koji traze kredite pa ih ne mogu dobiti (jer su nelikvidni) a i trenutno banke daju kredite drzavama jer tako dobiju vece kamate
Nostradurus- Admin
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BUBI je napisao/la:
Tu rečenicu sam Vam upravo objasnio na jednostavnom primjeru firzera i kupnje škara na kredit uz glavnicu 100 kn i kamata 10kn(10% godišnje). Može se govoriti samo o uzroku problemu naplate kredita i otplate kredita, a ne o kreditu s kamatom kao subjektom u ekonomiji.Ako je sva masa novca kredit, nemate od kuda stalno nalaziti novac za kamate - zaradu banaka.
Ne možete privredu analizirati mikroekonomskim načinom razmišljanja. Vi tvrdite da možete uvijek ostvariti više prihoda od troškova. A ja kažem da vam to ne drži vodu kada se primjeni na sve subjekte. Da bi to stajalo, morate raditi profit od kreditne emisije i cijelo vrijeme povećavati kredite eksponancijalnom stopom.
Banke to ne dozvoljavaju jer bi se time otkrilo da nema ni "S" od stabilnosti cijena. Zbog toga rade kontrakciju novčane mase. Pa mislim, ako sam sam ovo shvatio, možete valja i vi. A ovaj problem je osobito vidljiv kada jedna država ima 2% kamata na kredite, a druga 6%. To ne možete nikako pomiriti.
Dajte, recite mi koju ste literaturu koristili da bi imali ovo ekonomsko znanje.
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[quote="Nostradurus"]
Ne možete privredu analizirati mikroekonomskim načinom razmišljanja. Vi tvrdite da možete uvijek ostvariti više prihoda od troškova. A ja kažem da vam to ne drži vodu kada se primjeni na sve subjekte. Da bi to stajalo, morate raditi profit od kreditne emisije i cijelo vrijeme povećavati kredite eksponancijalnom stopom.
Banke to ne dozvoljavaju jer bi se time otkrilo da nema ni "S" od stabilnosti cijena. Zbog toga rade kontrakciju novčane mase. Pa mislim, ako sam sam ovo shvatio, možete valja i vi. A ovaj problem je osobito vidljiv kada jedna država ima 2% kamata na kredite, a druga 6%. To ne možete nikako pomiriti.
Dajte, recite mi koju ste literaturu koristili da bi imali ovo ekonomsko znanje.
"Vi tvrdite da možete uvijek ostvariti više prihoda od troškova. A ja kažem da vam to ne drži vodu kada se primjeni na sve subjekte."
Više prihoda se može ostvariti uvijek povrh rashoda, ako cijena finalnog proizvoda omogučuje pokriće rashoda i ostvarenje profita, ali samo uz uvjet da svaki poduzetnik profit ostvaruje dodatnom prodajom, a ne rezanjem postojećeg rashoda, jer rezanje rashoda, dovodi do pada prihoda drugih poduzetnika i mnogih radnika, to se upravo događa u RH. Postoji situacija da uz određenu razinu prodaje, nismo dostigli dostatnu količinu prodanih jedinica, te nam se ne pokrivaju rahodi ili se podrivaju rashodi, ali također bez profita, ali to je situacija u početnoj fazi poduzetništva. Postoji situacija da poduzetnik ne uspjeva prodati niti jedan proizvod, uz uvijet da nema bjesomučnog djeljenja otkaza radnicima, tada to znači da proizvod ne zadovoljava potrebe kupaca, te se zato ne prodaje, to je teško dostižna situacija, budući na tržištu uvijek imamo barem jednog podueztnika, koji bjesomučno dijeli otkaze s cilje da profit ostvaruje uz postojeće prihode i smanjenje psotojećih rashoda i time uzrokuje pad prihoda drugih poduzetnika i mnogih radnika.
Literatura:
Bilo koji ekonomski naslov nakladničke kuće MATE d.o.o. Zagreb.
Također knjiga "Bogovi novca"- ekonomski-geopolitički bestseler.
BUBI je napisao/la:
Tu rečenicu sam Vam upravo objasnio na jednostavnom primjeru firzera i kupnje škara na kredit uz glavnicu 100 kn i kamata 10kn(10% godišnje). Može se govoriti samo o uzroku problemu naplate kredita i otplate kredita, a ne o kreditu s kamatom kao subjektom u ekonomiji.Ako je sva masa novca kredit, nemate od kuda stalno nalaziti novac za kamate - zaradu banaka.
Ne možete privredu analizirati mikroekonomskim načinom razmišljanja. Vi tvrdite da možete uvijek ostvariti više prihoda od troškova. A ja kažem da vam to ne drži vodu kada se primjeni na sve subjekte. Da bi to stajalo, morate raditi profit od kreditne emisije i cijelo vrijeme povećavati kredite eksponancijalnom stopom.
Banke to ne dozvoljavaju jer bi se time otkrilo da nema ni "S" od stabilnosti cijena. Zbog toga rade kontrakciju novčane mase. Pa mislim, ako sam sam ovo shvatio, možete valja i vi. A ovaj problem je osobito vidljiv kada jedna država ima 2% kamata na kredite, a druga 6%. To ne možete nikako pomiriti.
Dajte, recite mi koju ste literaturu koristili da bi imali ovo ekonomsko znanje.
"Vi tvrdite da možete uvijek ostvariti više prihoda od troškova. A ja kažem da vam to ne drži vodu kada se primjeni na sve subjekte."
Više prihoda se može ostvariti uvijek povrh rashoda, ako cijena finalnog proizvoda omogučuje pokriće rashoda i ostvarenje profita, ali samo uz uvjet da svaki poduzetnik profit ostvaruje dodatnom prodajom, a ne rezanjem postojećeg rashoda, jer rezanje rashoda, dovodi do pada prihoda drugih poduzetnika i mnogih radnika, to se upravo događa u RH. Postoji situacija da uz određenu razinu prodaje, nismo dostigli dostatnu količinu prodanih jedinica, te nam se ne pokrivaju rahodi ili se podrivaju rashodi, ali također bez profita, ali to je situacija u početnoj fazi poduzetništva. Postoji situacija da poduzetnik ne uspjeva prodati niti jedan proizvod, uz uvijet da nema bjesomučnog djeljenja otkaza radnicima, tada to znači da proizvod ne zadovoljava potrebe kupaca, te se zato ne prodaje, to je teško dostižna situacija, budući na tržištu uvijek imamo barem jednog podueztnika, koji bjesomučno dijeli otkaze s cilje da profit ostvaruje uz postojeće prihode i smanjenje psotojećih rashoda i time uzrokuje pad prihoda drugih poduzetnika i mnogih radnika.
Literatura:
Bilo koji ekonomski naslov nakladničke kuće MATE d.o.o. Zagreb.
Također knjiga "Bogovi novca"- ekonomski-geopolitički bestseler.
Nostradurus- Admin
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Dajte Bubi, nemojte se brukati. Pročitajte http://web.efzg.hr/dok//za%20studente/elektronicki%20udzbenici/Krueger_Makroekonomika.pdf - strana 25: Sustav društvenog računovodstva: račcunanje nacionalnog dohotka i proizvodnje
Tj. ključ svega je na strani 37:
Eto, to je to sa stručnim rječnikom. Nema ni govora da prihodi mogu veći od rashoda bez unosa novca preko izvoza ili deficita proračuna. A izvoz nije rješenje za sve države. Druga mogućnost preko deficita proračuna države, samo to ne može biti na račun dizanja kredita.
Tj. ključ svega je na strani 37:
OKVIR 2.5: Osnovni identitet tri deficita
Zanimljivo je da BDP možemo promatrati na dva načina. S jedne strane nas može zanimati što možemo napraviti sa robama i uslugama koje smo proizveli (vrijednost stolica, traktora, prženih ribica, šišanja, održana predavanja, itd.).
Sa robama i uslugama možemo napraviti samo četiri stvari: prvo, možemo ih potrošiti (osobna potrošnja C), drugo, može ih potrošiti država (državna potrošnja G), treće, možemo ih ostaviti za sutra (investicije I) ili četvrto, možemo ih izvesti (izvoz X). No osim onoga što smo proizveli možemo trošiti i uvezenu robu (uvoz M). Iz ovoga bi vam trebalo biti jasno da je riječ o maloj otvorenoj ekonomiji poput Hrvatske. Nema drugih načina trošenja. To znači da vrijedi (skrećem vam pažnju da se radi o knjigovodstvenim identitetima, da bi se oni razlikovali od jednadžbi koje podrazumijevaju uzročne veze označuju se sa ≡):
Y ≡ C + G + I + X − M
odnosno
CA ≡ X − M tj. Y − (C + G + I) ≡ CA
gdje je CA bilanca tekućih transakcija (plaćanja) 13.
S druge strane, dohodak (novac) koji imamo možemo potrošiti na samo tri naˇcina. Prvo, možemo ih sami potrošiti (to je osobna potrošnja C), drugo možemo ih dati nekome drugome (pa se radi o porezima T, zapravo su to neto porezi odnosno razlika poreza koje platimo državi i novca koje nam država vrati u transferima; 14) i treće možemo štedjeti (pa imamo štednju S). Četvrtog načina nema. Zato imamo identitet
Y ≡ C + T + S
odnosno
S ≡ Y − (C + T)
S obzirom da imamo otvorenu ekonomiju i da se sve potrošeno treba platiti znamo da na razini narodnog gospodarstva vrijednost trošenja mora biti jednaka raspoloživim sredstvima. To znači da je
C + G + I + CA ≡ Y ≡ C + T + G
Oduzimanjem desne strane od lijeve dobijemo
(G − T) + (I − S) + CA ≡ 0
Odnosno
(T − G) + (S − I) ≡ CA
Svaka od ovih velična ima zanimljivo tumačenje. Prva, T − G je razlika prihoda i rashoda države (podsjećam vas, ne samo središnje nego i lokalnih jedinica, županija, gradova i općina te fondova za ceste, zdravstvo i mirovine, to se zove "opća država") i ona može biti pozitivna (u kojem slučaju kažemo da imamo javnu štednju) i negativna (kada država više potroši nego naplati u porezima pa ima deficit). Drugi, S − I je razlika štednje i investicija. Ona također može biti pozitivna i negativna (kada su investicije veće od štednje i ona se često zove deficit financiranja). Treći, CA ≡ X −M, je trgovinska bilanca. Ona također može biti pozitivna i negativna (pa se govori o deficitu i to je slučaj kada je uvoz veći od izvoza).
Ono što je važno jest da su sva ta tri deficita (države, financiranja i vanjskotrgovnski) povezana. Zato se nekada ovi identiteti nazivaju "identitet tri deficita" a nekada "dva deficita" (jer se S − I ne tumači kao deficit). Recimo, ako je financijski deficit nula onda deficit države mora bit jednak trgovinskom deficitu. Ako malo razmislite to je jasno jer ako je država potrošila više roba nego je mogla platiti skupljenim porezima onda ima deficit i njega je morala platiti
stranim zaduživanjem a to znaˇci da bi uvoz trebao biti ve´ci od izvoza. No u korištenju tri identiteta treba uvijek imati na umu da se radi o identitetima i da nema uzročnih veza izmedu veličina. S obzirom da se radi o knjigovodstvenim identitetima ove veličine se mogu izračunati iz sustava društvenih računa. U tablici su dani podaci za Hrvatsku.
Iz tablice je vidljivo da Hrvatska svake godine ima deficit opće države koji je manji od vanjskotrgovinskog deficita. To znači da u pravilu postoji i deficit financiranja i da su investicije veće od štednje. To pak znači da se i deficit države i deficit financiranja pokriva vanjskim zaduživajem (na primjer i ovakav broj javnih činovnika i autoputevi se financiraju uvozom kapitala).
godina;(T-G) Saldo konoslidirane opće države(% BDP-a; CA Saldo tekućeg računa platna bilance(% BDP-a);(S-I)Deficit financiranja
2008. -2.7% -9.4% -6.7%
2007. -1.8% -7.6% -5.8%
2006. -3.0% -7.9% -4.9%
2005. -4.0% -6.3% -2.3%
Eto, to je to sa stručnim rječnikom. Nema ni govora da prihodi mogu veći od rashoda bez unosa novca preko izvoza ili deficita proračuna. A izvoz nije rješenje za sve države. Druga mogućnost preko deficita proračuna države, samo to ne može biti na račun dizanja kredita.
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Frizer može ostvariti veći prihod od rashoda bez izvoza. Kupac može kupiti uslugu frizera, bez da je svoj dohodak ostvario u inozemstvu ili da je kao poduzetnik izvozio svoje proizvode u inozemstvo. Prihod poduzetnika može biti veći od rashoda i bez izvoza.
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BUBI je napisao/la:Frizer može ostvariti veći prihod od rashoda bez izvoza. Kupac može kupiti uslugu frizera, bez da je svoj dohodak ostvario u inozemstvu ili da je kao poduzetnik izvozio svoje proizvode u inozemstvo. Prihod poduzetnika može biti veći od rashoda i bez izvoza.
A što ako smo svi frizeri i šišamo jedni druge te nam treba nikakva druga usluga niti roba niti hrana.
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To je filozofska teza: Brijač brije sve koji sebe ne briju. Brije li brijač sebe?
U ekonomiji ako bi svi bili frizeri, i nito ne proizvodi niti jedan proizvod i niti jednu uslugu osim usluge šišanja, a postoje i druge potrebe stanovništva, tada bi frizeri u inozemstvo išli šišati, ali bi potrošen novac također trošili u inozemstvu, jer na domaćem tržištu ionako mogu kupiti samo uslugu šišanja, što im ne treba.
U ekonomiji ako bi svi bili frizeri, i nito ne proizvodi niti jedan proizvod i niti jednu uslugu osim usluge šišanja, a postoje i druge potrebe stanovništva, tada bi frizeri u inozemstvo išli šišati, ali bi potrošen novac također trošili u inozemstvu, jer na domaćem tržištu ionako mogu kupiti samo uslugu šišanja, što im ne treba.
Nostradurus- Admin
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BUBI je napisao/la:To je filozofska teza: Brijač brije sve koji sebe ne briju. Brije li brijač sebe?
U ekonomiji ako bi svi bili frizeri, i nito ne proizvodi niti jedan proizvod i niti jednu uslugu osim usluge šišanja, a postoje i druge potrebe stanovništva, tada bi frizeri u inozemstvo išli šišati, ali bi potrošen novac također trošili u inozemstvu, jer na domaćem tržištu ionako mogu kupiti samo uslugu šišanja, što im ne treba.
Ma niste skužili. Sve osam vam sve troškove na jednu uslugu. Svatko ima i prihode od te usluge. Očigledno je da nema mogućnosti da svi imaju troškove manje od prihoda. Ako je nemoguće sa jednom robom (uslugom) na tržištu, nemoguće je i sa N roba.
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- Post n°520
Rijetka odluka na tragu pozitivnog pomaka - ograničenje kamata
Nostradurus 19.07.12 13:05
http://www.business.hr/dogadjaji/odzvonilo-lihvarskim-oglasima-po-stupovima-svi-kod-linica-po-licencu
Limit kamata je samo jedna od mjera za rješenje problema, ali ne i ključna.Novim Zakonom reguliran je nadzor nad svim potrošačkim kreditima, a forumulama ćemo određivati iznos kamate, kazao je Linić i pojasnio da više neće biti ugovornih klauzula kojima se dozvoljava slobodno određivanje kamata, dok se premijer Milanović našalio kazavši kako će novi zakon povrh svega, destimulirati uništavanje komunalne imovine.
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Nemačka profitirala na EU krizi
Berlin -- Nemačka je zahvaljujući evropskoj finansijskoj krizi uštedela desetine milijaradi evra, pošto je privukla investitore kao zemlja sigurna za njihov novac.
Zemlje poput Italije i Španije moraju da plaćaju sve veće kamate na dalje zaduživanje na finansijskim tržištima, zbog sumnji u njihove privrede i lošeg stanja državnih finansija, prenose agencije.
Ove visoke kamate biće veliki teret za njihove ekonomije u narednim godinama.
Sa druge strane, finansijski zdrava Nemačka pozajmila je milijarde evra po rekordno niskim kamatama, a u nekim slučajevima one su bile negativne, što znači da su investitori plaćali Vladi u Berlinu da joj pozajme novac.
Nemačka je najveća evropska ekonomska sila i davalac najvećih sredstava u krizne fondove evrozone, sa društvenim proizvodom od 2,6 triliona evra.
Njena ekonomija beležila je stabilan rast u poslednje dve godine i sprečila povratak recesije u evrozonu u prvom kvartalu.
Država je nedavno prodala obvezica koje će biti naplaćene za deset godina po kamati od oko 1,5 odsto, a prošle sedmice prodala je obveznice vredne pet milijardi evra po kamati od minus 0,06 odsto. Investitori će naplatiti ove hartije od vrednosti za dve godine.
Drugim rečima, investitori gube novac i plaćaju Nemačkoj za mogućnost da sklone novac na sigurno u narednih nekoliko godina.
"Nemačka će samo ove godine uštedeti 10 milijardi evra zahvaljujući niskim kamatama", izjavio je ekonomista Jens Bojsen-Hogrefe sa Instituta za svetsku ekonomiju iz Kila.
Pojedini analitičari navode da je kriza u evrozoni Nemačkoj već donela dobit od oko 100 milijardi evra, što će Vladi omogućiti ulaganja u privredni rast i doprineti umanjenju državnog duga u vreme dok ostale zemlje evrozone grcaju u problemima.
Bojsen-Hogrefe procenjuje da će Nemačka uštedeti oko 68 milijardi evra do 2022. godine zahvaljujući hartijama od vrednosti koje je prodala od 2009. godine, prenose agencije.
B92
Ovaj deo upada u oci:
Takodje se kaze da Nemacka daje u krizne fondove. Zar nije situacija takva da Nemacka izvozi dugove?
Berlin -- Nemačka je zahvaljujući evropskoj finansijskoj krizi uštedela desetine milijaradi evra, pošto je privukla investitore kao zemlja sigurna za njihov novac.
Zemlje poput Italije i Španije moraju da plaćaju sve veće kamate na dalje zaduživanje na finansijskim tržištima, zbog sumnji u njihove privrede i lošeg stanja državnih finansija, prenose agencije.
Ove visoke kamate biće veliki teret za njihove ekonomije u narednim godinama.
Sa druge strane, finansijski zdrava Nemačka pozajmila je milijarde evra po rekordno niskim kamatama, a u nekim slučajevima one su bile negativne, što znači da su investitori plaćali Vladi u Berlinu da joj pozajme novac.
Nemačka je najveća evropska ekonomska sila i davalac najvećih sredstava u krizne fondove evrozone, sa društvenim proizvodom od 2,6 triliona evra.
Njena ekonomija beležila je stabilan rast u poslednje dve godine i sprečila povratak recesije u evrozonu u prvom kvartalu.
Država je nedavno prodala obvezica koje će biti naplaćene za deset godina po kamati od oko 1,5 odsto, a prošle sedmice prodala je obveznice vredne pet milijardi evra po kamati od minus 0,06 odsto. Investitori će naplatiti ove hartije od vrednosti za dve godine.
Drugim rečima, investitori gube novac i plaćaju Nemačkoj za mogućnost da sklone novac na sigurno u narednih nekoliko godina.
"Nemačka će samo ove godine uštedeti 10 milijardi evra zahvaljujući niskim kamatama", izjavio je ekonomista Jens Bojsen-Hogrefe sa Instituta za svetsku ekonomiju iz Kila.
Pojedini analitičari navode da je kriza u evrozoni Nemačkoj već donela dobit od oko 100 milijardi evra, što će Vladi omogućiti ulaganja u privredni rast i doprineti umanjenju državnog duga u vreme dok ostale zemlje evrozone grcaju u problemima.
Bojsen-Hogrefe procenjuje da će Nemačka uštedeti oko 68 milijardi evra do 2022. godine zahvaljujući hartijama od vrednosti koje je prodala od 2009. godine, prenose agencije.
B92
Ovaj deo upada u oci:
Sa druge strane, finansijski zdrava Nemačka pozajmila je milijarde evra po rekordno niskim kamatama, a u nekim slučajevima one su bile negativne, što znači da su investitori plaćali Vladi u Berlinu da joj pozajme novac.
Takodje se kaze da Nemacka daje u krizne fondove. Zar nije situacija takva da Nemacka izvozi dugove?
wiz- Broj postova : 561
Join date : 05.09.2011
Filipusis je napisao/la: Zar nije situacija takva da Nemacka izvozi dugove?
Daje kredite...
World War II reparations towards Yugoslavia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations_towards_Yugoslavia
Negotiations between the delegations of SFRY and FRG, as well as the Tito-Brandt talks, resulted in the harmonization of the Protocol on Monetary Relief in 1972 (unpublished) and the Agreement on the Approbation of Monetary Relief in 1974 totaling one billion German marks under firmly favorable terms. Yugoslavia paid off two smaller installments and the payments were reprogrammed and postponed several times.
There are some controversies with regard to the interpretation of the legal nature of this agreement. An analysis of this matter points to a typical bilateral onus contract, taking into account the title of the agreement as well as the provisions on multiple matters, including the object of the agreement, parties, amount of credit, interest rate, terms of use, paying the credit off and deciding on which party would enforce this agreement.
However, in the introduction of the Agreement from 1974 it was declared that “in terms of the approval expressed in the Communiqué anent the visit of Chancellor Brandt to Yugoslavia, the remaining open questions from the past should be resolved through long-term cooperation in the economic and other fields with the objective to definitely fulfill this consensus”. This was an indirect way to associate the credit with the reparations through the so-called Tito-Brandt Brioni Formula.
For almost two decades the Yugoslav public was not aware of the existence of the 1973 Aide Mémoire or position paper (a declaration of the Yugoslav Government), which was the condition of the German negotiators for this credit. The existence of the Aide Mémoire was also concealed in the statement of the Federal Secretariat of Foreign Affairs from January 1990, which was issued due to a series of public requests and inquiries of the deputies of both federal and state assemblies on the payment for war damages.
The content of the Aide Mémoire is as follows:
“In principle, the Government of SFRY accepts the proposal of the Government of FRG to compensate the indemnification of Yugoslav victims of Nazi repression in the total sum of one billion German marks in terms of monetary relief (Kapitalhilfe).
On the occasion of making this decision, the Government of SFRY takes into account the good faith, which was formed through the progressive and fruitful cooperation amongst SFRY and FRG, as well as the interests of the two countries to successfully and universally enhance their relations, what without doubt represents a contribution for broader international cooperation.
The Government of SFRY understands that the aforementioned credit shall be given under the most favorable terms, which are provided for credits of this kind. These means shall not be subject to any objects.”
As maintained by Willy Brandt, the so-called Brioni Formula is an “indirect solution” for the payment of reparations through long-term economic cooperation; because of this the President of SFRY Josip Broz Tito and his coworkers gave their consent. Prior to this and at that time the ongoing negotiations, on indemnification of the victims of Nazi repression, agreed upon the number 950 thousand. In reality, it was much larger considering the victims in occupied Yugoslavia and beyond it, and especially in the so-called Independent State of Croatia. There was a possibility that Yugoslavia could receive 2,200 German marks per victim, which would total over 2 billion marks. This would be the implementation of the so-called French model, in accordance with what FR Germany already in the 1960s paid the victims of the other countries, especially Western countries (Israel and the Jewish victims were indemnified earlier).
In the place of such direct remedies, as it was the case with the other countries, a credit of 1 billion with the obligation to pay back was received at the insistence of Germany and by means of the enforcement of the so-called Brioni Formula.
Veselin Đuranović http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veselin_%C4%90uranovi%C4%87
In 1981, Đuranović signed a credit package from the Federal Republic of Germany of DM 1.4 billion in funds for Yugoslavia.
Jung-fu- Broj postova : 285
Join date : 12.04.2011
wiz je napisao/la:Filipusis je napisao/la: Zar nije situacija takva da Nemacka izvozi dugove?
Daje kredite...
Davanje kredita = davanje dugova, ako iza davanja kredita stoji izvjesna republika, npr. Njemačka, onda data republika izvozi svoje dugove, Njemačka je naime zadužena u visini od cc. 2000.000.000.000.€, koliko god da proizvodi njoj dug raste pa ga ona svojim proizvodima zapravo izvozi...
Gledajući tu nevjerojatnu istinu dolazimo do zaključka o mogućoj monetarnoj psihozi koja je na djelu...
Zapravo do mogućnosti da se jedno pohlepno ludilo otelo ljudskoj kontroli i vodi u novu društvenu kataklizmu.
Kao što je europski razum svojevremeno dugo popuštao Hitleru u ime očuvanja mira, pa kasnije doživio totalnu destrukciju od potpuno oslobođenog nagona nacizma, tako i danas europski razum predugo popušta agresivnom i sljepom kreditno-monetarnom mehanizmu.
wiz- Broj postova : 561
Join date : 05.09.2011
MMF razmislja da odustane od grcke...
To bi znacilo da grcka ne moze platiti dugove i da krece domino efekt..
nizozemci traze da se njihov parlament izjasni o clanku..
http://theautomaticearth.com/Finance/the-imf-plans-to-dump-greece.html
German magazine Der Spiegel dropped a bombshell this morning in an article which is for now available only in German. My German is quite decent. Here's the original and my translation:
IWF will Griechenland-Hilfen stoppen (IMF wants to stop Greek help)
Griechenland könnte schon im September pleitegehen. Der Internationale Währungsfonds hat nach Informationen des SPIEGEL der Brüsseler EU-Spitze signalisiert, dass er sich nicht an weiteren Hilfen für das Land beteiligen werde.
Greece could go bankrupt as early as September. Spiegel has obtained information that the IMF told the Brussels leadership it would not make more money available for help to Greece. [..]
Derzeit untersucht die Troika aus EU-Kommission, Europäischer Zentralbank (EZB) und Internationalem Währungsfonds (IWF), wie weit das Land seinen Reformverpflichtungen nachkommt. So viel steht schon jetzt fest: Die Regierung in Athen kann den Schuldenstand des Landes nicht wie vereinbart bis zum Jahr 2020 auf rund 120 Prozent der Jahreswirtschaftsleistung drücken.
At the moment the EC, ECB and IMF troika is investigating to what extent the country lives up to its reform obligations. This much is already certain: the government in Athens will not be able to bring down its debt load to about 120% of GDP by 2020.
Erhält das Land mehr Zeit, seine Ziele zu erfüllen, würde das nach Schätzungen der Troika zusätzliche Hilfen zwischen zehn und 50 Milliarden Euro erfordern. Viele Regierungen der Euro-Zone sind jedoch nicht mehr bereit, neue Griechenland-Lasten zu schultern. Zudem haben Länder wie die Niederlande und Finnland ihre Hilfen daran gekoppelt, dass sich der IWF beteiligt.
The troika estimates that giving Greece more time to achieve its goals would cost an additional €10 billion-€50 billion. Many eurozone governments, however, are no longer prepared to shoulder new Greek burdens. Moreover, countries like Holland and Finland have made their help contingent on IMF participation.
Das Risiko eines Austritts Griechenlands aus der Währungsunion wird mittlerweile in den Ländern der Euro-Zone für beherrschbar gehalten. Um die Ansteckungsgefahr für andere Länder zu begrenzen, wollen die Regierungen den Start des neuen Rettungsschirms ESM abwarten. Dieser kann jedoch nicht vor dem Urteil des Bundesverfassungsgerichts am 12. September in Kraft treten.
Meanwhile, a Greek departure from the eurozone is seen as manageable in eurozone countries. In order to limit the risk of contagion, governments want to wait for the new ESM emergency fund to start. Which can't happen before the German constitutional court delivers its verdict on September 12.
Um Griechenland über den Monat August zu helfen, könnte ein letztes Mal die EZB einspringen. Eigentlich müsste Athen am 20. August 3,8 Milliarden Euro an die Zentralbank zurückzahlen. Die Lösung könnte eine Art Kreislaufgeschäft sein, bei dem die Euro-Notenbanken selbst die Kreditablösung übernehmen: Der griechische Staat könnte neue kurzfristige Staatsanleihen herausgeben - sogenannte T-Bills - und sie an die griechischen Banken verkaufen. Diese wiederum reichen die Papiere bei der griechischen Notenbank ein - als Sicherheit für neue Nothilfen.
To help Greece survive the month of August, the ECB could jump in one last time. Athens must pay back €3.8 billion by August 20. The solution could be a kind of circular deal, in which eurozone central banks take over credit payments. Greece could issue new short-term bonds and sell them to Greek banks. They could then submit them to the Greek central bank as collateral for new emergency help.
It’ll be a lot of fun seeing the IMF, and European leaders, try to deny the article and its implications. From what I understand, they want to wait until the ESM is effective, and then dump Greece. The article may trump any such intentions. Some things only work in secret, and once Pandora's box is open, they no longer do.
I still think it would be curious that the ESM, supposedly good for €700 billion or so (if not more), would be used to "save" Spain and perhaps Italy, but not Greece. For countries like Portugal and Ireland, dumping Greece would mean they need to get very nervous about being the next one thrown under the wheels and off the back end of the wagon.
The message might become that any and all reform and austerity measures demanded must be adhered to very strictly or else. Politicians in these other "borderline" countries might go along with it all, but will the people? Do the Irish really enjoy the idea of being strangled into submission? And will Spain really be "saved" once real debt numbers are known?
It seems far more likely that getting rid of Greece will be merely the first step in dissolving the entire eurozone. The rest of the dominos can then fall in rapid succession.
PS: For more entertainment, here's a link to a letter by Peter Doyle, former division chief in the IMF's European Department, who, upon resigning, shared a few of his thoughts on the fund: "After twenty years of service, I am ashamed to have had any association with the Fund at all..."
Doyle accuses the IMF of a terrible mishandling of the European crisis, something he says is due to the fact that information received well in advance about the European crisis was internally suppressed. He places responsibility for the suffering of the Greek people squarely on the shoulders of the IMF and the "fundamental illegitimacy" of the selection process inherent in its hierarchical structure, which has led to the appointments of people such as Dominique Strauss-Kahn and Christine Lagarde.
UPDATE: Dutch political parties have demanded their government clarify the Spiegel article. They suggest parliament break off their holiday recess and convene next week to discuss the matter at hand. The government wants to wait for a troika report.
To bi znacilo da grcka ne moze platiti dugove i da krece domino efekt..
nizozemci traze da se njihov parlament izjasni o clanku..
http://theautomaticearth.com/Finance/the-imf-plans-to-dump-greece.html
German magazine Der Spiegel dropped a bombshell this morning in an article which is for now available only in German. My German is quite decent. Here's the original and my translation:
IWF will Griechenland-Hilfen stoppen (IMF wants to stop Greek help)
Griechenland könnte schon im September pleitegehen. Der Internationale Währungsfonds hat nach Informationen des SPIEGEL der Brüsseler EU-Spitze signalisiert, dass er sich nicht an weiteren Hilfen für das Land beteiligen werde.
Greece could go bankrupt as early as September. Spiegel has obtained information that the IMF told the Brussels leadership it would not make more money available for help to Greece. [..]
Derzeit untersucht die Troika aus EU-Kommission, Europäischer Zentralbank (EZB) und Internationalem Währungsfonds (IWF), wie weit das Land seinen Reformverpflichtungen nachkommt. So viel steht schon jetzt fest: Die Regierung in Athen kann den Schuldenstand des Landes nicht wie vereinbart bis zum Jahr 2020 auf rund 120 Prozent der Jahreswirtschaftsleistung drücken.
At the moment the EC, ECB and IMF troika is investigating to what extent the country lives up to its reform obligations. This much is already certain: the government in Athens will not be able to bring down its debt load to about 120% of GDP by 2020.
Erhält das Land mehr Zeit, seine Ziele zu erfüllen, würde das nach Schätzungen der Troika zusätzliche Hilfen zwischen zehn und 50 Milliarden Euro erfordern. Viele Regierungen der Euro-Zone sind jedoch nicht mehr bereit, neue Griechenland-Lasten zu schultern. Zudem haben Länder wie die Niederlande und Finnland ihre Hilfen daran gekoppelt, dass sich der IWF beteiligt.
The troika estimates that giving Greece more time to achieve its goals would cost an additional €10 billion-€50 billion. Many eurozone governments, however, are no longer prepared to shoulder new Greek burdens. Moreover, countries like Holland and Finland have made their help contingent on IMF participation.
Das Risiko eines Austritts Griechenlands aus der Währungsunion wird mittlerweile in den Ländern der Euro-Zone für beherrschbar gehalten. Um die Ansteckungsgefahr für andere Länder zu begrenzen, wollen die Regierungen den Start des neuen Rettungsschirms ESM abwarten. Dieser kann jedoch nicht vor dem Urteil des Bundesverfassungsgerichts am 12. September in Kraft treten.
Meanwhile, a Greek departure from the eurozone is seen as manageable in eurozone countries. In order to limit the risk of contagion, governments want to wait for the new ESM emergency fund to start. Which can't happen before the German constitutional court delivers its verdict on September 12.
Um Griechenland über den Monat August zu helfen, könnte ein letztes Mal die EZB einspringen. Eigentlich müsste Athen am 20. August 3,8 Milliarden Euro an die Zentralbank zurückzahlen. Die Lösung könnte eine Art Kreislaufgeschäft sein, bei dem die Euro-Notenbanken selbst die Kreditablösung übernehmen: Der griechische Staat könnte neue kurzfristige Staatsanleihen herausgeben - sogenannte T-Bills - und sie an die griechischen Banken verkaufen. Diese wiederum reichen die Papiere bei der griechischen Notenbank ein - als Sicherheit für neue Nothilfen.
To help Greece survive the month of August, the ECB could jump in one last time. Athens must pay back €3.8 billion by August 20. The solution could be a kind of circular deal, in which eurozone central banks take over credit payments. Greece could issue new short-term bonds and sell them to Greek banks. They could then submit them to the Greek central bank as collateral for new emergency help.
It’ll be a lot of fun seeing the IMF, and European leaders, try to deny the article and its implications. From what I understand, they want to wait until the ESM is effective, and then dump Greece. The article may trump any such intentions. Some things only work in secret, and once Pandora's box is open, they no longer do.
I still think it would be curious that the ESM, supposedly good for €700 billion or so (if not more), would be used to "save" Spain and perhaps Italy, but not Greece. For countries like Portugal and Ireland, dumping Greece would mean they need to get very nervous about being the next one thrown under the wheels and off the back end of the wagon.
The message might become that any and all reform and austerity measures demanded must be adhered to very strictly or else. Politicians in these other "borderline" countries might go along with it all, but will the people? Do the Irish really enjoy the idea of being strangled into submission? And will Spain really be "saved" once real debt numbers are known?
It seems far more likely that getting rid of Greece will be merely the first step in dissolving the entire eurozone. The rest of the dominos can then fall in rapid succession.
PS: For more entertainment, here's a link to a letter by Peter Doyle, former division chief in the IMF's European Department, who, upon resigning, shared a few of his thoughts on the fund: "After twenty years of service, I am ashamed to have had any association with the Fund at all..."
Doyle accuses the IMF of a terrible mishandling of the European crisis, something he says is due to the fact that information received well in advance about the European crisis was internally suppressed. He places responsibility for the suffering of the Greek people squarely on the shoulders of the IMF and the "fundamental illegitimacy" of the selection process inherent in its hierarchical structure, which has led to the appointments of people such as Dominique Strauss-Kahn and Christine Lagarde.
UPDATE: Dutch political parties have demanded their government clarify the Spiegel article. They suggest parliament break off their holiday recess and convene next week to discuss the matter at hand. The government wants to wait for a troika report.
wiz- Broj postova : 561
Join date : 05.09.2011
dodatne infomacije o liboru (kamatne stope)
http://www.thedailybell.com/4056/The-LIBOR-Scandal-Is-a-Sham-Engineered-by-Central-Banking-Elites
The Biggest Banking Scam Ever ... British bank Barclays (LSE: BARC.L - news) is dead centre of a storm involving the manipulation of inter-bank lending rates, particularly Libor (the London Inter Bank Offered Rate). What is truly breath-taking is the sheer scale of this fraud. According to one estimate, around $350 trillion (£223 trillion) of lending and derivatives is priced off Libor. That's enough to pay for the whole of UK Government spending for around three centuries at current levels. Thus, if misconduct by banks caused Libor to increase by a mere one tenth of one basis point (0.001%), this amounts to $35 billion (£22 billion) a year in extra interest – that's roughly the UK's annual budget for transport and close to as much as council tax brought in last year. One official claims that 20 other banks helped to rig interest rates and that Barclays is poised to 'blow the whistle' on wrongdoing at its co-conspirators. It's also likely that criminal charges could be brought against the ringleaders of this worldwide fraud. – YahooFinanceUK
Dominant Social Theme: The sky is falling and we need to regulate the banks.
Free-Market Analysis: We've written two articles about the LIBOR scandal and yet we haven't had a bit of impact! How surprising is that?
Well ... not very surprising. Nor are we surprised. The Internet Reformation is not based on individual revelations. It is a process not an episode. It is an accretion of misaligned facts, a gradual buildup of cognitive dissonance that is engendered by the free flow of information on the web.
So we will wait ... and see.
Even ten years ago the power elite that runs central banking around the world could have gotten away with this massive fraud. But over time the alternative media will chip away at the nonsensical accusations swirling around the banks that create LIBOR.
People, already thinking for themselves (and more and more will), will see in this great, orchestrated showpiece that they are being tricked. A kind of malign "bait and switch is going on."
You can see our previous articles here:
Barclays LIBOR Corruption a Phony Ploy to Strengthen the Bloomberg/Qatar QIBOR?
Barclays Scandal Worse and Worse ... Whatever it is!
Financial Crime Must Be Punished!
The article we have listed last is of special import because the subject was a poll that asked people whether bankers should be prosecuted for "crimes" and came out just as the LIBOR "scandal" was breaking.
Now, some may find this to be a beneficial coincidence but we will say with considerable certitude: This Is All a Big Scam.
We're seeing the formulation of a full-blown dominant social theme before our aching eyes. It doesn't make any sense otherwise. It's all just promotional propaganda.
The idea is that top British banks conspired together to "rig" the price of LIBOR. But the entire financial industry is rigged from beginning to end, starting with the price and volume of money.
Central banking is the predominant theme of the monetary world – of the global economy, actually. All around the world, small groups of men under the supervision of the BIS meet regularly to determine (or "fix") the price and volume of money.
Yet we are to believe that the paltry price shaving performed by LIBOR banks is an expression of ultimate criminality while central bank price-fixing on a day-to-day and sometimes hour-to-hour basis is beneficial?
The larger central banks screwed interest rates into the ground after the 2008 financial deflation. And it has come out that the Bank of England encouraged Barclays (and presumably other banks) to keep rates down.
The LIBOR system of determining rates is itself subjective and determined by a group of banking insiders. To believe that LIBOR has not been manipulated throughout its lifecycle is to believe in fairy tales.
Why does the world need a predetermined interest rate anyway?
Why can't banks simply charge what they choose to charge? They used to.
What is wrong with competition? Or regional interest rates?
Well ... according to John D. Rockefeller, "competition is a sin."
And for the people at the top of the economic pyramid, it certainly is. The world is run by this criminal cartel and, as we have long observed, they have no compunction about sacrificing their own.
If there is a less grim side to what is going on, it has to be in the crumbling certitude of top industry bankers that they are not Masters of the Universe after all. They are actually pawns of a sort that are about to be sacrificed on the Great Chessboard of world power.
An apparent handful of dynastic families run things at this point in time, though the Internet Reformation is chipping away at their power, which is based on secrecy and which has been thoroughly exposed in the past decade.
They use dominant social themes to frighten Western middle classes into giving up power and wealth to specially prepared globalist institutions. These are fear-based promotions and one of the biggest ones is that the financial industry is the enemy and that only regulatory authority can cure the problem.
Of course, what is never noted is that certain institutions and individuals are above the law. These top entities secretly pull the levers of government for their own purposes and benefits. The process is called mercantilism.
A Bank for International Settlements (BIS) messenger can travel all around the world without a visa and without being searched. Detaining a BIS official is recognized as a crime the world over. Some people and groups are above the law.
But not banking executives. As we've pointed out numerous times, they are mere clerics in the scheme of things. Like politicians, generals, top scientists, etc., they are gofers for those who control the hundreds of trillions that pour off central bank printing presses every day.
Now these top controllers, threatened by the Internet, have embarked on a final push to subdue the financial industry and bring it totally under their control. They are evidently and obviously planning neo-Pecora hearings and this is the reason to orchestrate this latest "scandal."
We've predicted the hearings. We even believe we know who is going to run them. You can see some of the articles here:
Wall Street's Darkest Hour, Then and Now?
Pot Calls Kettle Black! Dallas Fed Claims Banks Too Big
As a final note, we'd point out that this LIBOR scandal, like so many other dominant social themes of late, has a kind of slap-dash quality to it, as if it were put together haphazardly at the last minute.
This fits with our larger theory that the REAL power elite is almost overwhelmed at this point. Their wars are not going well, their cynical plot to restrict the very air we breathe via carbon capture has effectively crumbled, their plans and schemes are regularly exposed on the Internet.
This latest gambit, it is true, has been a long time coming. The idea is to entirely subsume the private instrumentalities of finance under a regulatory structure that will effectively prevent people from raising capital of any size.
Money Power is well aware that money is what provides it with the ability to recreate history – to create "directed history," as we put it – as it wishes. Thus, no one but "them" is to have money in any quantity.
The ownership of money is being effectively criminalized. A few are to manage trillions. The rest will get by on hundreds or thousands.
The next financial industry hearings in the US and Britain will make this clear. Though, perhaps – just perhaps – it won't get that far. They've been evidently and obviously trying to set up these sorts of hearings for four years now.
We've watched the newspaper articles reveal frustration on a regular basis that "re-regulation" is not going well. The elites needed a big issue to capture attention. LIBOR is that big issue. The gnomes at Tavistock must have stayed up late hatching this one. How the whips must have cracked!
Over in Qatar, Bloomberg and Co. are setting up QIBOR to take the place of LIBOR. The opening salvo was launched not long ago with the observation that the LIBOR system was "corrupt." Lo and behold ... a corruption scandal.
Meanwhile, the financial gravity of the West moves to the Middle East. There are some two billion Muslims and a financial system must be developed to bring these believers into the Western fold.
The small, funny countries of the Middle East provide a metaphorical test tube. A "third way" is being developed and Dubai and Qatar are at the heart of it.
And we have to live with endless iterations of this phony LIBOR scandal as a result.
Conclusion: Don't believe the hype. Think for yourself!
http://www.thedailybell.com/4056/The-LIBOR-Scandal-Is-a-Sham-Engineered-by-Central-Banking-Elites
The Biggest Banking Scam Ever ... British bank Barclays (LSE: BARC.L - news) is dead centre of a storm involving the manipulation of inter-bank lending rates, particularly Libor (the London Inter Bank Offered Rate). What is truly breath-taking is the sheer scale of this fraud. According to one estimate, around $350 trillion (£223 trillion) of lending and derivatives is priced off Libor. That's enough to pay for the whole of UK Government spending for around three centuries at current levels. Thus, if misconduct by banks caused Libor to increase by a mere one tenth of one basis point (0.001%), this amounts to $35 billion (£22 billion) a year in extra interest – that's roughly the UK's annual budget for transport and close to as much as council tax brought in last year. One official claims that 20 other banks helped to rig interest rates and that Barclays is poised to 'blow the whistle' on wrongdoing at its co-conspirators. It's also likely that criminal charges could be brought against the ringleaders of this worldwide fraud. – YahooFinanceUK
Dominant Social Theme: The sky is falling and we need to regulate the banks.
Free-Market Analysis: We've written two articles about the LIBOR scandal and yet we haven't had a bit of impact! How surprising is that?
Well ... not very surprising. Nor are we surprised. The Internet Reformation is not based on individual revelations. It is a process not an episode. It is an accretion of misaligned facts, a gradual buildup of cognitive dissonance that is engendered by the free flow of information on the web.
So we will wait ... and see.
Even ten years ago the power elite that runs central banking around the world could have gotten away with this massive fraud. But over time the alternative media will chip away at the nonsensical accusations swirling around the banks that create LIBOR.
People, already thinking for themselves (and more and more will), will see in this great, orchestrated showpiece that they are being tricked. A kind of malign "bait and switch is going on."
You can see our previous articles here:
Barclays LIBOR Corruption a Phony Ploy to Strengthen the Bloomberg/Qatar QIBOR?
Barclays Scandal Worse and Worse ... Whatever it is!
Financial Crime Must Be Punished!
The article we have listed last is of special import because the subject was a poll that asked people whether bankers should be prosecuted for "crimes" and came out just as the LIBOR "scandal" was breaking.
Now, some may find this to be a beneficial coincidence but we will say with considerable certitude: This Is All a Big Scam.
We're seeing the formulation of a full-blown dominant social theme before our aching eyes. It doesn't make any sense otherwise. It's all just promotional propaganda.
The idea is that top British banks conspired together to "rig" the price of LIBOR. But the entire financial industry is rigged from beginning to end, starting with the price and volume of money.
Central banking is the predominant theme of the monetary world – of the global economy, actually. All around the world, small groups of men under the supervision of the BIS meet regularly to determine (or "fix") the price and volume of money.
Yet we are to believe that the paltry price shaving performed by LIBOR banks is an expression of ultimate criminality while central bank price-fixing on a day-to-day and sometimes hour-to-hour basis is beneficial?
The larger central banks screwed interest rates into the ground after the 2008 financial deflation. And it has come out that the Bank of England encouraged Barclays (and presumably other banks) to keep rates down.
The LIBOR system of determining rates is itself subjective and determined by a group of banking insiders. To believe that LIBOR has not been manipulated throughout its lifecycle is to believe in fairy tales.
Why does the world need a predetermined interest rate anyway?
Why can't banks simply charge what they choose to charge? They used to.
What is wrong with competition? Or regional interest rates?
Well ... according to John D. Rockefeller, "competition is a sin."
And for the people at the top of the economic pyramid, it certainly is. The world is run by this criminal cartel and, as we have long observed, they have no compunction about sacrificing their own.
If there is a less grim side to what is going on, it has to be in the crumbling certitude of top industry bankers that they are not Masters of the Universe after all. They are actually pawns of a sort that are about to be sacrificed on the Great Chessboard of world power.
An apparent handful of dynastic families run things at this point in time, though the Internet Reformation is chipping away at their power, which is based on secrecy and which has been thoroughly exposed in the past decade.
They use dominant social themes to frighten Western middle classes into giving up power and wealth to specially prepared globalist institutions. These are fear-based promotions and one of the biggest ones is that the financial industry is the enemy and that only regulatory authority can cure the problem.
Of course, what is never noted is that certain institutions and individuals are above the law. These top entities secretly pull the levers of government for their own purposes and benefits. The process is called mercantilism.
A Bank for International Settlements (BIS) messenger can travel all around the world without a visa and without being searched. Detaining a BIS official is recognized as a crime the world over. Some people and groups are above the law.
But not banking executives. As we've pointed out numerous times, they are mere clerics in the scheme of things. Like politicians, generals, top scientists, etc., they are gofers for those who control the hundreds of trillions that pour off central bank printing presses every day.
Now these top controllers, threatened by the Internet, have embarked on a final push to subdue the financial industry and bring it totally under their control. They are evidently and obviously planning neo-Pecora hearings and this is the reason to orchestrate this latest "scandal."
We've predicted the hearings. We even believe we know who is going to run them. You can see some of the articles here:
Wall Street's Darkest Hour, Then and Now?
Pot Calls Kettle Black! Dallas Fed Claims Banks Too Big
As a final note, we'd point out that this LIBOR scandal, like so many other dominant social themes of late, has a kind of slap-dash quality to it, as if it were put together haphazardly at the last minute.
This fits with our larger theory that the REAL power elite is almost overwhelmed at this point. Their wars are not going well, their cynical plot to restrict the very air we breathe via carbon capture has effectively crumbled, their plans and schemes are regularly exposed on the Internet.
This latest gambit, it is true, has been a long time coming. The idea is to entirely subsume the private instrumentalities of finance under a regulatory structure that will effectively prevent people from raising capital of any size.
Money Power is well aware that money is what provides it with the ability to recreate history – to create "directed history," as we put it – as it wishes. Thus, no one but "them" is to have money in any quantity.
The ownership of money is being effectively criminalized. A few are to manage trillions. The rest will get by on hundreds or thousands.
The next financial industry hearings in the US and Britain will make this clear. Though, perhaps – just perhaps – it won't get that far. They've been evidently and obviously trying to set up these sorts of hearings for four years now.
We've watched the newspaper articles reveal frustration on a regular basis that "re-regulation" is not going well. The elites needed a big issue to capture attention. LIBOR is that big issue. The gnomes at Tavistock must have stayed up late hatching this one. How the whips must have cracked!
Over in Qatar, Bloomberg and Co. are setting up QIBOR to take the place of LIBOR. The opening salvo was launched not long ago with the observation that the LIBOR system was "corrupt." Lo and behold ... a corruption scandal.
Meanwhile, the financial gravity of the West moves to the Middle East. There are some two billion Muslims and a financial system must be developed to bring these believers into the Western fold.
The small, funny countries of the Middle East provide a metaphorical test tube. A "third way" is being developed and Dubai and Qatar are at the heart of it.
And we have to live with endless iterations of this phony LIBOR scandal as a result.
Conclusion: Don't believe the hype. Think for yourself!
Filipusis- Broj postova : 268
Join date : 07.05.2012
Jung-fu je napisao/la:wiz je napisao/la:Filipusis je napisao/la: Zar nije situacija takva da Nemacka izvozi dugove?
Daje kredite...
Davanje kredita = davanje dugova, ako iza davanja kredita stoji izvjesna republika, npr. Njemačka, onda data republika izvozi svoje dugove, Njemačka je naime zadužena u visini od cc. 2000.000.000.000.€, koliko god da proizvodi njoj dug raste pa ga ona svojim proizvodima zapravo izvozi...
Gledajući tu nevjerojatnu istinu dolazimo do zaključka o mogućoj monetarnoj psihozi koja je na djelu...
Zapravo do mogućnosti da se jedno pohlepno ludilo otelo ljudskoj kontroli i vodi u novu društvenu kataklizmu.
Kao što je europski razum svojevremeno dugo popuštao Hitleru u ime očuvanja mira, pa kasnije doživio totalnu destrukciju od potpuno oslobođenog nagona nacizma, tako i danas europski razum predugo popušta agresivnom i sljepom kreditno-monetarnom mehanizmu.
Ja sam negde cuo da Nemci imaju veliku ustedjevinu, koja prevazilazi njihva dugovanja.
Drzava deponuje inostrani suficit u banke, koji se potom plasiraju putem kredita, tako da je logicno da dugovanja budu uvek veca od zarade. Kako onda imaju veliku ustdjevinu, ja ne znam!???
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